Beyond the Claim
Beyond the Claim

Episode 4 · 1 month ago

What to do about the Financial Stress Impacting your Employees and Claims w/ Erika Wasserman

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

If an employee is out for a while with an illness or is distracted by a messy divorce…

You’d want them to feel safe sharing — especially if it’s affecting their job — right?

Financial struggles can have an equally enormous impact on anyone’s life, but it’s something most of us get too squeamish to discuss.

That needs to change. Your employees deserve empathy — and if they don’t feel safe discussing finances, it could hurt your bottom line.

Today’s guest, Erika Wasserman, Financial Therapist at Your Financial Therapist, is one of the pioneers of Financial Therapy. Through this exciting new field, she’s creating a space where it’s safe for people to discuss, learn about and set goals for their money — and her approach is something every leader who cares about their employees’ well-being could learn from.

In this episode, we discuss:

  • The problem of financial literacy in our culture
  • How a financial therapist can help build financial literacy
  • Erika’s 4 most important money tips anyone can use today

And be sure to take Erika’s Money Relationship Quiz to learn more about yo ur relationship with money and how it may be impacting you.

Need more claims strategy in your life? Check us out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on our website.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Beyond the Claim on your favorite podcast player.

And you learned in your home.Some people talk about money openly around the kitchen table, other people don't talkabout it at all, and other people hear their parents yelling about money orfighting. So you build a relationship with money based on people who were taughteither and they're passage down their traits to you. You're listening to beyond theclaim, the show for forward thinking risk and claims professionals curious about the latestindustry trends, winning strategies and stories from influential leaders. Let's dive in.Hello and welcome to this episode of beyond the claim. I'm mark cunning him, your host, chief sales and marketing officer for brass bar. Today Ihave with me Erico lossman. She is CEO and founder of your financial therapist. Although Erica, thanks for joining us. Thanks, Mark. I'm so excitedto be here with you today, excited to have you so Erica.You founded your financial therapist in two thousand and nineteen. You're a certified financialtherapist, one of only fifteen in the world, which is impressive when wedefinitely have to hear more about that. You're educated in finance, international economicsand you have a passion fathers, powering individuals and couples and companies to reshapethe way they think about money. I'm not going to hold this against you, but you earned your Batchel's degree from the University of Florida and you havea certificate of financial therapy from Kansas State University. Very impressive. Thank you. I'm glad you say that. My University of Florida degrees impressive, likeit is recorded. Yes, yes, so its aeric. Before we jumpinto the deep end of everything financial therapy related, let's define that right,because I think maning an audience aren't necessarily aware of what a professional, certifiedfinancial therapist is and why they're only fifteen in the in the world. Soplease share. It's a growing profession. The number has actually increased since then, so I think twenty or twenty five, so we're growing. But a financialtherapist is somebody that you could talk to about money. So the firsttime I interact with people they say whoa...

...what's the financial therapist, kind oflike what you just did. My question back to them is, well,who do you talk to about money? And I get a blank stare andthen I'll get HMM, my account it once in a while a financial advisor, if I have one, but there's nobody that you talk to on aregular basis. And financial wellness is so important because it fits into the wholewellness wheel. Your spiritual, your relational, your job, you know, everythingthat we do, money plays a part of but yeah, it's theone topic that's so tabooed that we don't talk to anybody about. Well,here comes financial therapy. It's a platform and a safe place to talk aboutmoney and your feelings towards it and with it and with family members, withyourself. It's a relationship that literally is everywhere, from a cup of coffeeto buying a house. And what do you before I went, do wantto hear about your journey. It's an impressive one and, full disclosure forthe audience, Erica is a family friend. I actually coach Erica's daughter and havedaughters, excuse me, firm for many years. Impressive Group of womenthere and I think the audience will really appreciate hearing your journey. But beforewe get to that, are you touched on some things around you know,the conversations that we're not having in the connection with our friends, that thatwe're not having? Do you think that there's a void of maybe financial literacyat a young age? Is it not an intimate part of kind of definingwho we are at what's leading to this disconnect that in something that's so criticalto our life? Mark, you hit the nail on the head on thatone. When you talk about Financial Literacy, my question back is, well,we're supposed to learn about it. We don't really teach our kids financesin school. We teach them math in geometry, but we don't teach themhow to spend money and has it feel to receive money. So where doyou learn it? You learn it in your home and some people talk aboutmoney openly around the kitchen table, other people don't talk about it at alland other people hear their parents yelling about...

...money or fighting. So you builda relationship with money based on people who weren't taught either and they're passing downtheir traits to you. So financial literacy is is a big part of this, because we're learning habits from people who are qualified to teach us. Isreally when it comes out to, and so it's we start socializing things likewhen you learn a new hobby, are you go to the gym and youwant to start working at more, you get an accountability partner, you geta coach, you get somebody to train you. We don't do that withmoney, you know. You don't sit and ask your buddy, Hey,what did you call to reduce your bills? or I need to get a newmortgage. Where do I go? You don't ask those questions. Instead, you sit inside and most people just suffer. Yes, that's definitely let'sdefinitely go there. So, before we do them, I have a personalconnection to at least part of your story. So, so Erica is a singlemother of three. I am a son to a single mother of three. I know that that presents many challenges at times, one of which canbe your financial health right and so I've been a great supporter of yours,probably behind the scenes, for a long time now, and I truly Iknow that your path has not been linear and I think that, like manyof us, that often is the case. But we think that, you know, it means that we can't get to the vision, to end pointwhere that we had maybe in our younger years. So Erica, what waswhat's your journey? How did you get to this point of a I knowyou didn't go to the University of Florida to become a financial therapist. Sohow did you how this come to be? Yeah, like everything in life,it's not linear. Your career paths not linear, your personal life's notlinear, and mine wasn't I there. So you're right. I got afinance degree, I went and worked for IBM and I worked for I bmfor a decade. I was fortunate enough to get an assignment overseas, soI lived in Japan for a few years and I lived in China. Iwas married. During this time frame.

I had my first daughter, whostarted under your leadership in football for playing flag football. Marks a great coachboth on the in the workplace and on the football field. So I appreciatehim. I had my daughter and realize that when I came back to theUS that that wasn't working for me to work in corporate America anymore. Ineeded something and more flexibility. My husband at the time was working a tonof hours. And yes, I said at the time, because I leftCorporate America and I left the marriage and before that I had a few morekids. So with three kids together and I we went separate ways and allalong that path. I went to work with entrepreneurs and growing brands, withmore flexibility for my time to be that single mom with the girls and followmy passions. And when I found out about financial therapy, at this bigAha moment, because that's what I'd been doing behind the scenes with so manyfamily and friends, and what I realized is there really isn't a safe placeto talk about money and to build confidence with money. One of the numberone things that people have is Shane when it comes to money and embarrassment.And I'll give you a quick example. My father passed away a few yearsago and my parents were in a very traditional marriage and but ye, mydad and I bonded over money, because I love money right, I lovefinance, I love math like that was our thing and in fact, whenI was a little in sid on his lap and we look at the stockmarket together and it was just our thing. My mom had no interest. So, unfortunately, you got praatic cancer. was very quick. I knew exactlywhere that lend of life, well, excuse me, the end of lifefolder was. I knew where the binder was with all the information,but, more importantly, I knew the why behind all of that my momdid it. So when he passed, I pulled out the binder and Ihad to start going through things, but not only that, I had tostart guiding my mom through the process and take her through all these finances thatshe had never seen before. She didn't have a relationship with money because shehad been avoiding it for fifty years. When they were married, and atthe same time, financial therapy came into...

...my life and it was it wasthe right match for me and I've been enjoying this journey ever since, workingwith both individuals, with couples in with corporations, because it's such a voidin the HR global wellness programming that's out there. So and I want toI was going to say let's before we shift to corporate wellness, but it'sprobably counter to your rod turn point. Right. So you're quoted as sayingmoney impact your overall wellness. Yet the topic that it's a topic that isn'taddressed openly or often enough. In turn, avoiding the conversation can impact your relationship, sleeping patterns, workplace productivity and overall joy. I think you've touchedon that personally, but then also professionally, and there seems to be that disconnect. Right. So you gave the example of your mother and her approachto the the financials and I think that that theme is consistent through for manyrelationships, personally but also professionally. So when you have a corporate wellness approachor agenda, what does that consist of? Who are you targeting? Where doyou see the opportunities? Where do you see that the gaps and opportunity? The gaps today? What's your approach? What's your model? Yeah, sofirst let's talk about what's happening in the workplace. Did you know employeeson average spending an hour day on the personal finances? Did Not know that? That's an hour a day each employee that you have. Do the mathright. So what our day? Twice, twenty hours a month times employees thatyou have. Times are hourly rate. It's actually affecting your bottom line.Now, what are they doing in that hour? They're checking their bankaccount, creditors are calling them, you know, it's a variety of thingsthat they're doing in that hour. So financial wellness is important. Now HRis important with salary. How much people are getting total compensation and they think, okay, we did our part as a corporation and they're out the door. What's happening is those issues at home are coming back into the office place. Do you know that stress shows up...

...in crazy ways? It can showup in two days headaches, irritability. So what's happening in that calm workplacewhere you're happing is people calling out six to go to doctor's appointments because theyhave migraines or muscle tension. Or you have people who are causing distruction within, you know, that safe, quiet environment that you're trying to create,because they're financially stressed and have no place to talk about it. So it'srolling into your workplace. So what I come in is we do workshops andwe have that safe place for free people to talk about money. And itcould be done in small groups, which we find is nice, manager groupsversus non manager groups. Right, so you're not sitting with your manager havinga financial discussion and there's so many things we could talk about. One isthe intersection of money, one is how to you meet your goals. Sothat mindset from I'm always going to be in debt to I am in debt, and if I follow the five hours that you're a financial therapist, isset in place. I will be added debt in twenty four months. Right. It goes from that fixed mindset of like I'll never do it to comingup with action plans. So you're saying the you know corporations that focused on, whether it be pensions, which have are fading away entirely soon enough tofor in case, or other retirement type plans, to your annual pay reviews. You're saying that's not enough. So that's that's not necessarily financial wellbeing initself. Right. That's that's more static and there's a broader focus or constant, concentrated effort that needs to be implemented for you to really live a healthylifestyle with money. You got that, and that's exactly it. Those areimportant aspects to offer your employees. What's happening is, and you can seeby your statistics of how people are opting into these programs, they don't evenknow how to get started, and so by has starting the conversation that it'sa safe place to have these conversations. And some people don't even nursing whatmatching can do for them. So for...

...them to sign up for a matchinga k. They first have to understand that they have money enough to savefor retirement and that mindset shift up. I can do this, versus it'soverwhelming and I don't want to even open the bill or look at what Ihave. And that's what a lot of people feel, is they just feeloverwhelmed right now with money because they work. Talk to tools. Think about it. VI centil on the football field. Will talk football for a minute,right. I sent you on the Football Field Championship game and gave youno plays and gave you didn't give you, you know, put your quarterback anddidn't give you any support. What's going to happen in the same thinghere is is we're asking people to go on the field for Super Bowl yourlife, to go live it big, with no support. So I'll addto that by saying so a lot of what we deal with as an organizationare individuals that are going through a physical or emotional, you know, disabilityand life, whether it be a work related event or something that occurred intheir prost life. And in some cases they get to the add on claimand they're, you know, they're receiving what they were as an individual producingin their job in other cases they received they reduced income, and so nowyou have an additional hardship. You have a physical or mental hardship from thatdisabling event, but then now you also have a financial hardship that just exacerbatessome of the the gap and the problems that you're describing. So if you'reif you're having that individual coaching session or even speaking with an organization that's maybedivining or redesigning their their their benefits, their or their approach to advocacy,what do you say that? How do you get to that individual to becauseit's not just it. In addition to making them keeping them financially whole,I would say it's also improving their ability to return to a physical or mentalwholeness. So what do you say would be the approach to either developing aprogram at a corporate benefits level or dealing...

...within individual that maybe going through thosestruggles and hardships? Yeah, so there's four tips right here that I'm goingto give you. The first one is sharing. So I would encourage thepeople that you work with, that you're working with, it a waiting onthis claim or getting a claim or to reduce claim is sharing reduces the shame. So if you share a matter of reduced rate right now, therefore,I can't come to your birthday party or you know there's a reason. Andso when you share, you reduce the shame that goes along with it.And again that comes to talking about money, people are going to be some moresupportive of you and maybe all of a sudden they're going to be ableto drop off a meal. If they don't know what's what you're going on, then they can't help you. So sharing is important and with that sharingis getting an accountability partner. And what that is? Just what is anaccountability partner? How do I become one, sir? Yes, well, you'reonly an accountability partner for your wife, I'm going to assume, knowing bothof you. But you know, for me my accountability partner is mybest friend and you know we keep each other and in check when we wantto brainstorm and idea or she knows we're all my financial information is God forbidsomething happens to me. Here's an interesting fact. So your accountability partner helpsyou guide you through this. But if you just set a goal, granted, you just said you have a claim now, right, so your claimmight be. Your goal might be is to get through the next few monthswithout going into debt. Just by setting that goal, you have a tenpercent chance of taining it. By setting a goal with an accountability partner,it was sixty five percent chance of a take of obtaining it. Now I'mgoing to throw you a curveball because sixty five percent sounds pretty good, butI'm a high achiever. So if you set uple with an accountability partner andset up appointments, so just like you would as a when you're at workright set up monthly check ins, you have a ninety five percent chance ofmeeting your goal. So take this on like you would a project at work. Yeah, let's say that I'm going...

...to have a child and I'm goingto take some time off related to that shot and I know that I needto shift maybe how I spend during that period of time so that I'm fullyavailable, maybe beyond the period of time that my employer may pay me ata hundred percent of my, you know, my pre divisability earnings that I won. I mean, obviously that's scenario where I'm going to be communicating withothers, but the sharing part is critical. You're saying in the visuals needs toknow that I may not be able to kind of operate, to liveas I would be in a normal, everyday life setting, and I wouldimagine, given the influence of social media is having in our lives and now, that that's probably easier to do now than it ever was. Would youagree with that? And folks are more vocal with their the in and outsof where they are, or do you think that they're still pressure? Weare only conerant. You know, people are still embarrassed when it comes tomoney and we want to look at the social media, we want to lookfancy. So people rent a house or rent a boat and be like,Oh, look at by, you know, look at me out on the boat. You know that's not reality. So when you get your accountability partner, get somebody who knows your reality and who's also invested in you. Sothat's going to be the important peace, and I do a wope worship offinding your accountability partner, because it's important. I had a client who was like, Oh, my brother inlaw's my accountability partner. He says he's atraitor, he knows a lot about money. Well, guess what, it tookher two years and he never sat down with her. He wasn't theright accountability partner. So having that right person is really important. And thenyou touched on planning, which is a budget. Now, when you saybudget like that hair back. That exists anymore. With the excess, withthe access to credit, we even know what a budget is anymore the country. So please expand them. Yeah, so it's funny because you're runner.I know your run a right, I hate running. I do run,but I do hate it. It's I...

...decided. You know, I'm suck, I should say stuck at home. I'm at home working with three children, homeschooling. I pretty much ran out my door and and I look aroundand I'm like this is hard. I don't like it, you know,my heads down, my body language is just not feeling good. And Iturned the corner and I look across the street and there's mark now and there'sZellable, woman jogging in her cute little outfit and the visor and the musicgoing and and I was like, Oh my God, this is how peoplefeel when I talk about money. Right. So we all have a different spectrumwhen it comes to money and when it comes to the budgeting. Butif you are planning on taking excessive leave, you need the budget to meet yourgoal to go run that marathon. The start with some smaller steps andI don't I rephrase budget to call it a yes plan. So again,if you're looking for corporate workshops, I've a workshop on this. Like buildyour yes plan. Yes, I can stay home for an extended period oftime, and it's that mindset shift that will help you get there and sayit will be easier to say no to other things like, Hey, youknow, we have concert tickets for next weekend. Do you want to go? No, because it doesn't match my yes plan. Like that a lot. So get past the stigma of sharing and share, find an accountability partnerand create a plan. Last one is empathy. I mean self empathy orout to let's go swell, okay, there's a difference between sympathy and empathy. Think about that for a second. So sympathy is like poor you.Empathy is I understand what you're going through. It's a very different conversation and whenpeople feel that you're in in your...

...corner, there likely to believe inthemselves more and use you as a trusted resource. You're building relationships. Whenyou have empathy versus sympathy, they're staying as a community, you know,they as a general community. Let's be more empathetic to individuals and all reciprocateat some point in time and it so that we can all appreciate that individualsare going through, you know, potentially a difficult time or at least somethingthat's not consistent with their normal daily lives, and let's help them through that withempathy. Yeah, I mean, especially if you're in if you're directwith clients that are going through a life shift, you're meeting them probably ata low point and you're not seeing them at their best. So taking aminute, maybe in that's you could do some exercises like a you know,a deep breath before you pick up the phone, some tapping, if thatworks for you, you know, with your fingers, just to release somestress. Get up and dance, move around, and then you can engagewith somebody at their level, you know, and had build that relationship because you'rethere with them, instead of just saying, Oh, yeah, yeah, you know, and I feel bad for you. You know. No, you know, let's be in this together and we're going to get through. This is a very different approach and one that we see stronger results with. I think you've nailed a few things. I mean we see that one,advocacy is growing General Act of advocacy, right. So you that could touchon everything from EAP type programs to, you know, physical fitness is tobut I don't think any really touch on the financial wellbeing. To agreethat they could. And so I think one there's an opportunity to educate andto be more planful, especially in the claiming space. You have individuals that, yeah, maybe it's only a couple weeks that they're out of work,maybe doesn't have the hardship that it could. But then give individuals that are outthrough retirement or that are settling on...

...a financial claim, right. Andso now you've gone from having a reoccurring stream of income to a settlement.That seems great because you have a single lump sum of money, but nowyou don't have a plan, necessarily, of what to do with that moneyand how to stretch that out for the Long Hal so that you're prepared.As the lottery winner the rate, I mean the bankruptcy reading lottery winners,it's probably very similar to what you see when you some blump sums go outto clients. Yeah, I mean it's it. Initially it's advantageous for everyone, but I think for the individual and being empathetic to their situation, weneed to be mindful that they may not be prepared and so that this typeof support maybe something that employers may want to offer an addition to that financialsettlement to make sure that this person, you know, is whole over thecourse of their life or that disability. So that's great, good, goodstuff, good stuff and more. You say that because somebody might feel worthyof the check that they received. What it bean by that? So it'sinteresting. So I have clients that they received a large check an inheritance ora claim, where they are like, I didn't earn this, this isn'tnot my sweat equity, you know, and therefore might even put it awayand not look at it, and some don't even cash it. I knowthat sounds crazy. I can't empathize, but there are people say this isin my money. It doesn't feel good to take and you know, yousee that for people who probably don't show up as claims that should. Youknow, you probably have some valid people that would issues that should be claimingbut because they don't feel that they're worthy of it, don't submit the claim. So we all have a relationship with money and it shows up everywhere andwhile you're waiting for the claim could also be very stressful because of the unknownsthat are going to happen and the what if that we tell ourselves. Sobeing mindful and being supportive is going to be important on the journey for bothyourself and the client. So you touch...

...on something that I'm I'll throw myown quick curveball here that I think has impacted that relationship over the last notto date myself, but were less definitely twenty years of possibly thirty years,where the access to credit exists in a way that it didn't in prior yearsand your credit scorts for a degree is it will not even told agree.It's definitely less relevant to your access to credit than it's ever been before.Do you think that that has hurt or helped the financial literacy, the financialhealth of individuals that the country in general is it is a fact that wecan continue to live a decent lifestyle via credit. A good thing or andand probably not one answer. Or does it present a new challenge. Isbecause now you've potentially created a new problem for yourself and digging yourself deeper intodeeper debt while having challenges with, you know, access to income, becauseeither you're out on claim or you're shifting jobs. And what are your thoughtson on credit and its role in, you know, the financial health ofour society here? Credit card debt is real and the majority of us haveit. So why did we get up into it? Or let's take alook back. That goes back to financial literacy. So if you go tocollege or university or Trade School, you generally get a student loan. Soyou're coming out you're starting off not on the right foot with finances. You'restarting off already in debt. And you know, Mark All day myself withyou is, you know, when I went to school, they you know, they just had tabletops and no free t shirt. Just sign up fora credit card. I still have that card? Actually, yes, Ido. It's to day. You just go online and, let boo,a credit card shows up and all of a sudden you don't know what theAPR is. You don't understand that when you pay they're like, I paythem inimum amount. Well, that's great, but you're going to pay the minimumount for twenty yours and pay fortyzero...

...of interest versus paying it out infull. Now a lot of my clients don't understand that because they'ven't been educatedon this. They grew up with their parents back to where you learn justa credit card debt. It was the norm. So we have to startcommunicating with our peer groups, with our social networking groups, of Hey,I just found a low interest a pr or I called my credit card companyand reduce that or paid off my debt and celebrate it. Back to theaccountability partner. Hey, I'm going to pay off this Tj Max credit cardhas twozeros on it. Great, next one. Hey, how did thatTj Max Credit Card come along? Hey, we I got the TWOZERO. Awesome, high five. Let's Bo grab a beer for five bucks. Youknow what I mean. Like it takes that shame away when you're sharing andit gives you an objective. For Myself, I keep an objective of goal settingand I have some clients that do it. You know, like thechurches in the schools, they do like a thermometer. Yeah, so wecould do the same for your credit card debt. So every time you payoff more of it, market hang it up so you can see it andit's a sense of accomplishment as you move through it. I was just goingto say I think you're you're on the verge of my going to copyright it, of a gamification of your financial wellbeing in therapy. I think you mayhave something there. I actually have cards coming out later this month. See, there you go. I should have known you ahead of the game.We are excellent. All right. So, Erica, last question before we beforewe close. You have a money relationship quiz available, so tell usabout that. What does that consist of? SRE So, on my website youcan find a quiz that talks about your money beliefs and it comes withfour different scripts. Are you money vigilant? Are you money worshiper your network yournet worth equals yourself worth? Are you money status? You know youwant to be seen in the right places,...

...or are you money avoider? havean open up, a credit card bill and months. So what itdoes is it gives you so a snapshot back and great a role combination ofthese, of where you are today and once you get a snapshot. Ilook at us like a horsecope. Okay, now you know where to go nextor some of your positive and negative traits in which ones you want towork on, and you could get that on my website, at your financialtherapistcom and probably something that you're more revealing in the under behind closed door.So it's probably a good thing to have. That's not facetoface, at least formany. I think when you get with a therapist, for sure youneed to accept the reality and, to your point, be the open andget move past the stigma of sharing those those prior maybe inhibitions around my financials. That to your point. You know, my bringing was a little bit different, but I think generally speaking and prior generations it was. That isan adults conversation. You know, the kids don't need to be a partof that conversation and probably did some harm. And now to your point again aroundcredit cards and such. Hey, maybe we can't do everything, andhere's why, as opposed to just doing it billing it in the kids notunderstanding and getting a complex of anything can be done at any point in timeand yeah, somehow we're paying for it. So we must we must be welloff right. It's note. I grow the you know, the thegrocery store. My ten year old be like how much money's on that thing? You just keep talking, stupid, but there's not tangible cash. Andso from some clients I say take out the cash, freeze the credit cards, put them away in a drawer, you know, and go old school, the little accordion and everything has a budget, and do that for amonth and start seeing where you're spending and where you're not. So sometimes,you know, the credit cards does do more damage because we don't even thinkabout it. The other thing the kids can get involved in is setting agoal. At a Klin who wanted to go to Ireland. So again they'rethe thermometer bull. And so is that...

...good? Girls? We can goto dinner tonight where we could put the twenty towards Ireland. Will Guess what? Everybody had peanut butter and Jelly that night, and that twenty dollars thatcolored in to go to Ireland. And she's like it worked for being adidn't, because then we'd be out shopping and they'd be like mom, doyou really need that family involved and that experience when they did get to gomint so much more to everybody. So don't be afraid to get the familyinvolved in these conversations. Set Goals as a family and as an individual.Erica, I am so glad we did this. I think it's a muchneeded, you know, opportunity to presenting to your clients and I wish younothing but success and I will do my best to champion the cause, becausewe have a void in the space and I think we it starts in ourhousehold, but it definitely bleeds into our corporate our work environment. So,Erica, you mentioned your website. So please say again where folks can canreach you and work and they contact me absolutely. I'm available at your financialtherapistcom or you can drop me an email at info at your financial therapistcom.All right, Erica, again, everyone, Erico Ossaman, ceeo and founder ofyour financial therapist. Thank you so much. Thank you. You've beenlistening to be on the claim a podcast for risk and claims leaders. Toensure you never miss an episode, please subscribe to the show in your favoritepodcast player, if you use apple podcast. We'd love for you to give usa quick rating for the show. Just tap the number of stars thatyou think the podcast deserves. Until next time, stay curious and keep innovating.

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